Nicholas Wyman on Creating Apprenticeships for the Disability Community, the Hashtag #GSD, and His New Book

Workforce development guru Nicholas Wyman joins us today to talk about how his company IWSI America build apprenticeships, especially around the disability community. He will also discuss his new book, Attract, Retain,, Develop: Shaping a Skilled Workforce for the Future.

NICHOLAS WYMAN BIO

Nicholas “Nick” Wyman began his career as an award-winning chef before becoming a globally recognized leader in workforce innovation. As founder and CEO of IWSI America, he has pioneered national apprenticeship initiatives — from the first registered U.S. forestry apprenticeship in 35 years to groundbreaking healthcare programs for people with disabilities.

Nick is the author of Job U: How to Find Wealth and Success by Developing the Skills Companies Need (Penguin) and Attract, Retain, Develop: Shaping a Skilled Workforce for the Future (Fast Company Press, 2025). He contributes to Forbes, Fast Company, CNBC, and the MIT Press Journal, and is known for translating global best practices into practical solutions that reshape careers and communities. His latest work explores the intersection of wellness and work — how personal health, resilience, and performance fuel not only individual success but also the future of organizations.

WEBSITES

https://www.iwsiamerica.org/

https://www.readywillingable.us/who-we-are

https://www.nicholaswyman.com/

LINK TO AMAZON for Nick's New Book

If anyone is interested in a complimentary copy of Attract, Retain, Develop: Shaping a Skilled Workforce for the Future, please contact info@foxgiving.org. Audio books are also available.  Thank you, Nick!

CO-PRODUCED BY

Alexandra Rush

HOST & PRODUCER

Akira Nakano

www.innovatinginclusion.org

Transcript

Opening Jazz Music plays.

NARRATOR

Welcome to the Innovating Inclusion podcast. Today, we welcome Nicholas Wyman, a globally recognized leader in workforce innovation. He has pioneered national apprenticeship initiatives — including groundbreaking healthcare programs for people with disabilities.

Nick contributes to Forbes, CNBC, and the MIT Press Journal, and is known for translating global best practices into practical solutions that reshape careers and communities. His latest work explores the intersection of wellness and work — how personal health, resilience, and performance fuel not only individual success but also the future of organizations.

Enjoy today’s episode!

Opening music fades.

AKIRA

Welcome everybody. Nicholas Wyman is an internationally recognized workforce expert. He's a regular contributor to Forbes and Fast Company; authored the award-winning book, Job U: How to Find Wealth and Success By Developing the Skills Companies Actually Need; and the 2025 Amazon Bestseller, Attract, Retain, Develop: Shaping a Skilled Workforce.

And as the CEO and founder of the Institute for Workplace Skills and Innovation America, IWSI, he has redefined career pathways, transforming global perceptions of skills and success. But interestingly enough, his journey started in the culinary arts at the Claridge in London as a “poissonnier”. For those who don't know, would you tell us… First, welcome, Nicholas, and would you tell us what that station is and how you went from being a chef to becoming a leader in the corporate space?

NICHOLAS

 Sure, absolutely. Well, it’s great to be on the program and just to get it right. I wasn't a professional poisoner and it's spelt very similar. It's the French for fish chef poissonnier is how you say it in French. And the only reason I actually got to be the poissonnier at Claridge, they just had this 15 million pound refit of the kitchen. And the executive chef was a real character and he said to me, I applied for a job and I heard you'll never get a job in this hotel, Nick. They went on Michelin Star very, they have 80 chefs in the kitchen, and I went into human resources and they said, you got the job. And I said, what? Pretty much they hand me my apron. I go down and meet these people in this English hotel and said, are Nick Wyman from Melbourne, Australia? And they said, yeah, we're all from Australia, Nick. And I suddenly realized that he'd set up this kitchen so that each international area of the kitchen, the French did the patisserie, the pastries. The Canadians did the larter. The Swiss with the precision, did the sauces. The English, they did the vegetables. And the Australians, the Aussies, we were relegated to the fish. It was very high stakes and what working in top kitchens like this taught me around the world in different countries, and I ended up in Switzerland and in Scotland and some amazing places.

This is all as a young chef, it taught me discipline, teamwork, and what it feels to learn by doing. It also helped me see that talented young people who didn't fit the college mold could thrive in environments like this. So that's what really sparked the pivot. And I realized the story for me wasn't so much about food. It was actually about skills, and I've been chasing better ways to connect people with meaningful careers since it's my mission. 

AKIRA

Yeah, that's great. And through IWSI, you have created more than 20,000 skill-based career opportunities spearheading transformative workplace initiatives across the United States. And largely these are through these skill-based apprenticeship programs. So can you tell us why and how you think these programs are addressing the skill gaps and contributing to economic growth? 

 NICHOLAS: We live in this age of globalization and technological change, and with the onset of AI where people are wondering, well, what jobs are going to be needed? Is my job secure? Is my job safe? And one thing we know is that jobs with skilled work are on the rise, what was called traditionally the white collar jobs. For those listeners out there, if you're in accounting, legal, y ou better be polishing up those resume skills and maybe thinking about refreshing and rebooting some of your skills. I'm very much about lifelong learning. Those jobs are going to be affected by AI, whereas the jobs I'm talking about working with your mind or your head, your hands, dexterity. These are jobs that are in need and just in our home state here in California, in the defense industries, employers have been caught short. They don't have enough skilled people to get the jobs done. 

With all the programs, we'll talk a little bit in culinary metaphors today, but I'll call it the “secret sauce”. And the secret source is mentoring. It's all very well to design these world class programs, but if I'm an employer and I wanna protect my investment. The way to protect that investment once the person started is to provide quality mentoring. Now, of course, all our programs also have quality learning, so you wanna make sure that in any program you design, that you attend, that you are a part of. It has those elements in it. Is there a peer group that you can share and learn from?

And more importantly, is there career trajectory within the organization or the job? And as I touched on before, this idea of quality learning. That's the only way that your company, your state, and this country is going to advance, you know, as we push further into this century. 

AKIRA
Well, I love two points that you've made in your book. One is that technological takeover that's coming. There's still that piece of human necessity to make these things work. So can you talk about how humans need to interface to make that technology run? 

NICHOLAS: Sure, sure. So a few years ago, and hopefully Bill Gates doesn't listen to this and say, I didn't say that. I recall Bill Gates talking about the robots are coming and everyone's, oh my goodness. This is before AI actually, something I first saw in Japan with Toyota, and I'm probably gonna say it wrong, I think it's called jyudoka (sp?), humankind, working together with machines in harmony, and my take on that is we should embrace technology, not fear technology. AI is having some incredible impact in healthcare, medicine, all sorts of different ways, but it's how we use these things. This is the other thing. Think about humanity as a whole. Regardless of AI and technology and all these futuristic films that we've seen over the last decades, if your pet, your dog, your cat is unwell, you don't want to take it to a machine. You wanna take it and see a person. The same with human health. I want AI and technology to help advance with this onset of what's now being called precision medicine. There's some amazing doctors in this space. What it's using is technology, but with the human element. And I think that combination is the future. So embrace, not fear. technology, but we'd be crazy not to embrace technology. 

AKIRA

Of course. And let's talk about the mentorship and apprenticeship things. I think one thing, Nick, that I love that you talk about is that apprenticeships. We generally think of them as for young people, people just starting out in the business. But your theory is kind of like, no, not at all. They need to be available for upskilling at all levels. Can you talk more about that? 

NICHOLAS

Hey, this is probably a great opportunity to plug my first book. It was called Job U, and it talked about health, wealth and success by developing the skills that companies need. And it really talked about all these things that you can do no matter what age or what stage you are in your life or career that you constantly need to learn. It's fairly intuitive. Stackable credentials that you really need to think about. Lifelong learning. And don't say, well, I've completed this course, or I've completed my four year degree or completed my apprenticeship, I'm done. You need to constantly refresh. If I'm in a job now and I'm a bit worried, is my job going to disappear with AI? There's this thing called MOOC, massive online learning. You might have heard of it. Universities offer it. You can do some incredible courses at little to no cost and you can build up your skills while still working in one job.

And I think quite often people feel there's only two options. It's this job or it's that job. If you are interested in something, you've got a passion and you are wondering if it can turn into a career, why not take some studies and do some of this work at night, at a time that suits you? That's what's incredible about this online era of learning.

Actually, now I'm thinking about it. I did rehash that in my book, so it's in my. current book, we can make a few available to listeners. I can send some over to you and the folks at the foundation, if anyone's particularly interested. I'd love to sell some books, but if people don't have the means or would like a complimentary copy in the back of that book, there's a guide to all these different courses that people can undertake at no cost. So there's really no reason that somebody can't find some learning that suits them and suits their style. 

We are stuck in the workforce world and particularly in the areas of disability where we've literally got this whole workforce sitting on the sidelines. And it's crazy. I meet employers who say, oh, Nick, we can't find people with the skills we need to get the job done.

So a large part of what IWSI is, and I should say it's a 501(c)3. We're really here to work with communities and as a trusted intermediary, so companies have a skills need. We're partnering with the California Department of Rehabilitation on a couple of fantastic programs, which we've designed, but these are unique, new, fresh, and they're certainly not old models, and we're pushing the envelope, but we feel we need to do that because something needs to change.

We really wanna shift the needle on this. How do you do that? Well have a intermediary who can bring everyone together. All these elements already exist. There's programs offering wonderful mentoring. There's employment programs, there's mental health, sexual health. All of these things exist. But what we're doing here is bringing these things together in a coordinated way, making it simple for employers to say, you know what? I'm gonna hire that person. I'm not here talking about let's employ folks with disabilities because we feel it's the right thing to do. I'm saying there's this whole untapped workforce sitting on the sidelines, and if your company has a skills need, let's talk. 

AKIRA

You have spearheaded this program called Ready, Willing, and Able, which is an inclusive skill-based apprenticeship that connects individuals with disabilities to high demand careers across California. It's in partnership with the California Department of Rehab. So would you please discuss this program in more detail?

NICHOLAS: So we piloted the program in healthcare in Orange County, a couple of years back. We wanted to make sure that we had the model right before we rolled it statewide, so it's now available in any industry. Pretty much any occupation you can think of is apprenticeable, and we can run that anywhere in California. And we've hit a pretty ambitious target, actually. We're aiming to place 600 people into apprenticeships, and we're looking for high-skilled, new age apprenticeships: optical technicians, dental technicians, really exciting dynamic roles, looking at jobs and roles in advanced manufacturing.

And IWSI has this incredible toolkit that it's able to offer employers. We actually have designed eight apprenticeship programs, which really are plug and play, so if an employer is interested, they can pretty much say, I want to join the program and start an apprenticeship the next day. If you don't have access and you want to design your program from scratch, either at a state or federal level, it can take months, if not years, to design these programs.

So if there's an employer out there who's like, I really want to do this, but... One of our champions at the Department of Rehabilitation, his name's Mark Erlichman. The very first time I met Mark, he said to me, Nick, as soon as someone says “why not?”, he said, that's when you pick up the phone and call me. 'cause we want to know what that barrier is and we're going to address it. Is it something that needs to change within the workplace modification? Is it transport? Is it travel? What is the barrier? And let's remove it. 

So we're really trying to work with employers and say, what are the reasons, what are some of the challenges? And how we're doing that is we're running these town hall meetings all over the state. And if someone would like one in their region, in their industry, in their occupation, we're happy to run that. And we bring employers, stakeholders, workforce boards. Other organizations, nonprofits and community enterprises bring them all together in one space. And we say, folks, what is your skills need in this area? And quite often people will put up 15, 20, 30, 40 jobs and. The next thing I say is, well, why don't we focus and let's pick three, four, maybe five industries or occupations, and we focus on those that have got some commonalities because then that leads us to economies of scale.

We're training, and then we get the show on the road and getting people involved early in these program designs and realizing that it's not one size fits all. I think a lot of well-meaning programs fail because they knock on an employer's door and say, here's our program. Would you like to join? Do you want to send us a partner letter of support?

I'd like to think we've evolved and we're a lot more open. To conversations and saying, let's allow companies to build some competitive advantage.

AKIRA

That's great. My thing  is always the from the work we do at Fox Family, there's so many programs that we see that are great for people with disabilities to train, and then there's a stop. There's kind of a failure there because they're ready for work, but then the employers aren't ready to get opportunities. So I really love what you're doing.

NICHOLAS

To drive your point home. One thing we meet is a lot of people, and not just young people, we meet a lot of people who have respectfully a wall full of certificates. They've attended this, they've attended that, they completed this, completed that. And when you talk to those folks, just want a job. 

And so this idea of apprenticeship is that you can do this at any age, at any stage in your life, but the cornerstone is employment. It starts with an employer. So once you've got an employer in the equation, you're not building up for this training.  And then that's where employers can customize the work and customize the learning. There are so many people out there. I was a high school drophouse, different era. I wouldn't recommend dropping out of high school now, but the reason was is that I was dyslexic and I was not performing or excelling in the traditional classroom. It was a talking head and my school was all about examinations and tests, and I'm the kind of guy who thinks about getting a blood pressure test and my blood pressure goes up. I was getting all anxious about these exams and I'd flunk every one and the school was saying to my parents, I don't think he's academically this or he is academically that.

I went and off and got an MBA, I attended Harvard Business School. So they were wrong the way they were just myopically focused on this superhighway. It was college or bust. Anybody who was not on the college super highway, they were pushing into these off ramps. Didn't matter for me because I secured an apprenticeship.

Now I come from a long line of academics. My father was an academic psychologist, riser, and all of a sudden you've got, hang on, Nick wants to be a chef and my father did everything he could to get me to not do that. He took me off to his university and organized me a job in their cafeteria, and that was soul destroying. I mean, I did that for a day and came home and said, I don't want to be a chef anymore. And luckily enough, my mother pulled me aside and said, one of my friends owns a restaurant. Go and talk to her, and she'll get you a bit of work experience. So sometimes the best career advice doesn't come from your parents.

AKIRA 

Absolutely. Absolutely. How do you encourage more employers to participate in your program? What are their advantages to employers? Why should they do it, and how do you get that message across to unlock this workforce? 

NICHOLAS: There's a lot of reasons that employers want to invest in apprenticeship now, there. Some studies out there that have been done, I mean, the White House did one several years ago that talked about for every dollar an employer invests in apprenticeship, they get back $1.47. So return on investment is definitely something high on the list. Other things that you see when you have apprenticeship programs within your organization, you can grow your own skills to meet the specific needs of your industry or your company, which gives you, as I said, this competitive advantage.

So that's another big one. Just bringing new ideas. And if it's a youth-based apprenticeship, young people, youth vitality into a workplace, remembering that many employers are really in a difficult situation at the moment. They've got a workforce in some industries and occupations that are marching into retirement, and they need to think about, how am I going to bring the next generation of workers into my company?

Now, some people say, well, you know what? I'll wait till the times of grace. I don't feel we're in economic boom. I think there's a lot of employers right now sitting on their hands, you could say, waiting for things to improve. There are economic reasons why it makes good dollars and cents to invest in apprenticeship.

AKIRA 

And why specifically apprenticeships with the disability community. 

NICHOLAS

I'll look at it from both perspectives. From an employer's perspective, why would you want to get involved in the program? Well, the points we just talked about there makes good economic sense. And I should have said previously, the economy is going to turn around. The economy's rolling in cycles. And employers who don't invest now in skills, when the economy quickly changes, there's some new innovation, something happens. If you are not taking a long range view to skills development, you're gonna get left behind. 

From an employee's perspective, I think there are plenty of ways to earn.

People say, well, where are the jobs that you've got for the folks with disabilities? And I say, well, there are none. And they're like, but isn't that what you're doing with the DOR? No, we're creating jobs and we're saying to people, if you want that job, we'll help you get it. We'll give you the support that you need.

It's a different perspective. There's a couple of people who didn't like that. I'm like, well, this is my perspective, my position. We're really trying to raise the visibility to this idea that if you have a disability, you don't have to have this entry level repetitious... It's like engrained in the status quo, and you ask people why.

And I often say to employers, they say, “Oh, look, Nick, here's the position description. We love what you're doing, Nick. It's great. Not for us right now.” And why? What is it in this role? I see here graphic design and digital art. You have heard of Canva and the 80 million users on Canva. 

Jazz Music Interlude

AKIRA

You have launched Career Launchpad for high school juniors and seniors with disabilities on your site. Can you tell us about the program and why you launched it and what the goals are? 

NICHOLAS

I shouldn't have favorites, but I do. This program is critical for that school to work transition. We had this generation who during COVID, they didn't really make that school to work transition and we want to make career advice available.

We don't wanna duplicate what a school or a school district is already available. We complement. If a workforce board, they've already got a program, fantastic. How can we supplement and help that? But in short, the program really has three parts. The first thing we do is it's for high school seniors and juniors.

The first part is that our career coaches, counselors have a couple of conversation. And we run through all sorts of really interesting interactive ideas and games. I think you might have actually used one. I did. I'm trying to see. Yeah. Now how did you go with that? 

AKIRA

I played the career selector game, which, uh, you put in some traits and then it spins the wheel and tells you what your career track is. So I got business entertainment track, and then we got a series of videos that you get to watch to support your career track. So I love that piece. 

NICHOLAS

Right. So that's perfect. That means you are qualified to start your own podcast.

AKIRA

Wonderful.

NICHOLAS

Oh, that's, so the first thing is getting to know the person. What are they interested in? Now we're expecting that a lot of young people, these high school seniors, juniors are not sure, so we've got this thing called Career Buffet, where we take them on a journey of all these different careers occupations, and quite often it comes out that parents say, don't get a job outdoors. You want something with a collar and tie regardless. Parents may have biases. So it's an area, an opportunity to explore. 

Then we get into some training towards the end of the program, which is a hundred hours of paid work experience. So before you get to go off and undertake a hundred hours of paid work experience, which IWSI,  our organization, is the employer of record.

So any employers, this is an easy lift for you. All we need is a workplace. It's gonna cost you nothing. We cover the insurance. We cover everything. We just need you to give someone a start. But we give people some training, and that could be financial literacy and numeracy, soft skills, employability skills: showing up on time, working together with others, what to expect at an interview. Wnd then we actually do some mock interviews. We wanna make this learning fun, engaging. We don't want, nothing wrong with PowerPoint. I don't have anything against PowerPoint. We want people to say, wow, I didn't know that I could undertake…

The best part about this program is that it nicely dovetails into the apprenticeship. So if you do your hundred hours paid work experience and you do really well, we could help have a conversation with that employer and say, would you consider taking this person on in an apprenticeship role? And that person would receive credits or the person can go back to school, which we want them to finish school.

They can go back to further study. What we don't want a failure for our program or for any school to work transition is doing nothing because this idea, this misconception that people are mucking around down at the mall, being in nuisance, all these kids hanging around is actually not generally true. A lot of these folks are sitting at home just staring at the wall, flicking through Insta face or whatever those things are called, just flicking through, looking for something to jump out at them. They're disengaged. We will help. People navigate this critical program. Alright, it's my favorite. I said it's my favorite and I think it's a critical program. And this is the sort of program I'd love to see run right across the country. 100%. 

Hey, on that, where people are finding jobs and work, some of the big jobs boards are in serious trouble, financial trouble. LinkedIn gets 11,000 applications a minute. So you've gotta keep on top of these trends. And if you are looking for work, looking for apprenticeships, you really need to network within your community. It could be, um, my son attends a church group on Monday evenings. He loves it, the social interaction, they get around, have some food, their 15 year olds.

That's where we want to capture the imagination of young people. So it's this engagement. We just want people to engage employees, to engage everyone, to be a part of what I'm calling conversation, that going back generations. These conversations used to be held around the kitchen table, and now it seems everybody just wants to order, take takeout and do everything in a hurry.

Slow yourself down, everyone take a breath. Be quite intentional about whether you are looking for employees and ask yourself questions. Why? Why are we doing it like this? If you're looking at an apprenticeship, what can I do to stand out amongst all these 11,000 applications a minute? What can I do? Some of this online credentialing that I talked about that's free.

You can take a course, show an employer that you're interested in that particular occupational or industry, go to some industry events. It's these little things that will set you a path and will secure you that job. 

AKIRA

I wanted to talk a little bit more about your new book, Attract, Retain, and Develop. I love the hashtag GSD. Would you tell everyone what that is? 

NICHOLAS

It stands for Get Stuff Done. It's about you gotta keep moving. Don't sit at home, disengaged, get out and do something. Connect with people. I'm very much a person who says, let's go. Let's get some stuff done. And in the book, one of the reasons I talk about that is that post COVID employers and employers are in a bit of a different place.

Employers are feeling pressure tariffs, international trade wars, they're feeling more pressure than ever to get stuff done. Reports, results.  Think of that like a coffee machine, like a, you know, an espresso machine at your local cafe. And then you've got all these takeaway coffee cups. And to me that's people. They got used to the latte lifestyle during COVID, whether it be working from home. What drives them? Money, not necessarily true purpose. Wellness being a path of something greater. And so the premise of my book is saying, how can we get this takeaway coffee cup to connect with this machine that it's all a part of?

And to really round out how we started, how can we, this all exists together in harmony, and I've got varying ways that I talk about doing that in the book, including that people can thrive in their job. Believe, belong, contribute. You need to evolve. You need to connect. There's so many things that you can focus in on.

I'd have to say right now, anybody listening, be an employer, someone looking for a job, a couple of attributes you really want to make sure you've either got or you polish up on or understand. You've gotta be able to adapt to change. You've gotta be resilient. Gone are the days of one career, careers. Um, my father-in-law, he started pretty much in the mail room in a corporation, and he ended up as the global head of marketing. That was his whole career. The one company that doesn't happen anymore, the. It's exciting times, and I think if I was going to have a hashtag for employers and for people for this podcast, the hashtag would be, #ThereAreOptions. It's not necessarily super highway as we talked about. You know, people often say to me, Nick, college is the only pathway.

People still say that. “Nick, we love what you do, but not for my son or not for my daughter.” I say to them, “Skilled work should be held in the same regard as other career pathways.” And in fact, in Switzerland, vocational or CTE pathways fill before the academic pathways and people often move. One of the most successful bankers in the world is a guy I know named Sergio Ima, and he was the CEO of one of the large banks. He did an apprenticeship in banking. That's how he started. He didn't go to four year college. He did an apprenticeship. 

AKIRA

One thing from your book that I really love and about helping companies as the economy is changing, you talk about companies need to create a culture of innovation and trailblazing, and I thought that was the thing that resonated most with me as I think it's really important to always be evolving and creating things. And then you also, you mentioned four things that company need to do to find success. 

NICOLAS

Yes. 

AKIRA

Would you share what they are. 

NICHOLAS

So disrupt, thrive, evolve, and connect. If you are not doing these four things as a company, then you're going to fall behind this guy Clayton Christensen. He was about disruptive innovation and he really helped me.

He wrote a great book actually, Disrupting Class. And he talked about this idea of, you know, a shiny new technology. That's not what disruption is. It's about a new business model that changes the rules of the game. And the danger is when leaders clinging to these old, outdated ideas. What do I mean by that?

Kodak. One of their engineers, Sasson, that's his name. It's a French thing, Sasson. He built the first digital camera at Kodak and it was certainly a Kodak moment, as they say. Management looked at it and said, that's nice, but we make our money from film and printing. And they buried the idea. They had the future of photography in their hands and missed it. So by the time they played catch up, Kodak is not known as the digital leader. 

Another example of these four things, disrupt, thrive, evolve, connect, Cirque Soleil, that's disruption. Cirque de Soleil took all the things out of circus that were either no longer… there were some very questionable things that used to go on in circus, as I can tell you.

Along comes Cirque de Soleil who disrupted that and said, let's take the theatrical, the athletic, the acrobatic, and the excitement, but let's put it in a venue without that draft sort of blowing up the back of the chairs and let's put it into an environment where we pay people properly. And there things that companies not should do, they must do.

Pretty heavy. But yeah, if you're not disrupting, thriving, evolving, and connecting, you're gonna get left behind.

AKIRA

If you were thinking forward, what's your big idea to really disrupt and innovate in the workforce development in the future?

NICK

To me, we need to think about the way we live, the way we work and the way we learn. And I think it's really a rethinking of all those elements. the way we live, work-life balance, wellness, what we eat.  Education is being disrupted. We're seeing this huge shift in what was the monopoly of four-year college. There are plenty of ways to learn.

And so think of it like a freeway, the 405 freeway that had eight lanes and now it's got six and then it's got three. And then sometimes these close altogether.

There are things you can do to create new pathways and bypasses and detours and learning a new skill is one of them. So two weeks ago, I went and bought myself a guitar and I had my second guitar lesson and its kind of hard for a guy who's dyslexic, I'll be honest with you, because my instructor sits opposite me. And it's not looking in a mirror. It's very confusing for me, but I'm going to push past that pain barrier and I can at least get out the first couple of choruses of the Beatles' famous “Eleanor Rigby”.

Learn a new skill, folks. learn a language, dance, new occupation, but lifelong learning, Let's end on that. I think everybody, whether you're an employer listening, you're retired, lifelong learning, connection with your community, and if you're looking for work, this is exciting times, really consider this idea of apprenticeship and maybe connect with one of our programs.